Starting in October, all personnel selected to attend the Armys initial entry aviation training will incur an ADSO of ten years upon graduation from flight traininga dramatic increase from the previous six-year commitment. Their workload is increased several fold versus the units that they are supporting. Aviation has always been a highly desirable branch, and gaining a slot has been a matter of performance or differentiation from peers (whether OML or via a competitive application process). It doesn't matter that theWOFT contract I signed this week states that it is a 6 year ADSO - the Army can do and change what it wants. Id always wanted to be a pilot and didnt know anything else, so I said the Doolie equivalent of Shut up and take my money! (There was a lot more Sir and Maam involved.) New aviators to incur 10-year service obligation - United States Army Fixed wing is cheaper. pay, allowances, benefits, and responsibilities as a member of the Nope. Army is trying to get payback for their costs, but that will be increasingly hard to do if airlines are hiring. I think it would be a great idea to leverage senior NCOs to enter pilot training with a waiver. The U-2 and B-2 are both single-location aircraft, and they go through so much trouble getting their pilots that youd have to try to leave. West Point graduates have a 5 year commissioning ADSO. Start date has no impact on this. I remember when they tried to get aviators out of the "sack" flight suit and into Nomex BDUs to make them more soldierly. Theres a two word solution to this, age waiver. If the civilians don't want to join, not a problem. New Army directive will reset aviator warrant officer date of rank So here I am, considering branching aviation when all of a sudden.BAM! I dont agree with this decision at all but mean forcing people to stay helps retention because you know, they are forcing you. The army has never been good at personnel management. Powered by Invision Community, https://www.reddit.com/r/Armyaviation/comments/gxcx3o/10_year_adso_is_official/. Theres no debating that the military has a near monopoly on the most exciting aviation available to humankind. Our young NCOs want to become warrant officers and get out and fly. Plus, you will also be earning full GI Bill benefits AT THE SAME TIME. The Army has more career Enlisted soldiers willing to cross over for the opportunity in being an Officer, pilot and increasein pay for their families, with or without a degree. Once Stan finally gets qualified in his aircraft, hed get seasoning orders with his Guard or Reserve unit. So the recruitment piece has not historically been our challenge, it has been capacity and production. But what if the new ADSO invalidates this assumption? "Army Aviators don't want to stay in the Army even though we pay them less, deploy them more, and treat them worse than their peers in other branches and civilian careers, so we will just force them to stay in longer. However, I dont think its worth passing up a nearly guaranteed Active Duty UPT slot in hopes of possibly getting a Guard or Reserve slot 5 years from now. If retention suffers too much, the Army will face a pilot production shortfall that will add to the existing shortage. We want as many applications as we can, so if anybody has any questions, be sure to contact that warrant officer recruiting team, Kearns said. Not difficult for the Army in finding 400 additional career minded E-3 to E-7 for the WOFT program if need be. In my next 6 years I flew a total of 50 hoursAnd it's not for lack of trying, I was just in assignments (that I didn't ask for and tried to get out of) where there were no aviation units around. army aviation 10 year adso - kestonrocks.com Clear editor. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Would they do it with a 12-year commitment? Yes, life there is fantastic, and its important to get there as quickly as you can because Seniority is Everything. I assume if you're not in flight school by that date, your commitment is just as long as the Air Force if not a little bit longer. arent bad, and patriotism also factors in for most of us. Then 10 year service obligation put me right at 20 so Im not too worried about that. I dont think I wouldve taken the 10 Year ADSO, considering that Id just now be ALMOST complete with 10 yrs aviation service. What I would like to add is almost the opposite of some of these comments. So here I am, considering branching aviation when all of a suddenBAM! Weve seen, If youre headed to pilot training, you absolutely must read our 3-part series on Winning UPT. Change flight school where primary flight training is done by civilian contractors via fixed wing. The Army lowered the max TIS to 8 years for WOFT applicants a few years ago without a waiver. Probably a 11-11.5 year commitment. , this is far from guaranteed. Additional Duty Safety Officer Course brings added - United States Army These cadets may not be willing to forgo an extra four years of civilian work experience to serve as aviation officers. They wont, we already dont get the congressionally authorized flight pay. Thats at least 2 moves and several TDYs in the space of about 2 years. While a longer ADSO may help from looking solely at the numbers, it won't be effective at retaining quality talent. There are also a lot of great flying opportunities that you can only do on Active Duty. But ifonline discussions are any indication, this ADSO will turn away a lot of prospective pilots. Our nation needs brave men and women willing to use Air Power to murder our enemies and break their shit. Army Career Satisfaction Program However, on the surface, we see that Stans plan is likely to get a pilot to the airlines a couple of years before his peers. 10 is a big commitment either way. It turns out that even one year is a big difference. The report included a figure showing that the Army faced a shortfall of 330 warrant officerswho comprise 70 percent of the Armys pilot ranks. I remember similar drama during my Fourth Class (freshman) year at the, Now that Im older and wiser, one of my many. If I am reading this correctly, this applies to officers that attend initial flight school after October 1st 2021. By collecting data and then improving quality of life and quality of service with targeted retention initiatives, the Army will not just increase retentionthe positive changes will increase the appeal of serving as a pilot in the Army, and recruiting will increase as well. The Army is making those who want to go through flight school incur a 10 year active duty service obligation (ADSO) as it's "fix" for pilot retention. My family got to live in England for three years and it was fantastic! It's almost as though he completely and totally ignored the concept of morale and esprit de corps. The Army Needs a Better Solution for its Pilot Shortage army aviation 10 year adso. I remember similar drama during my Fourth Class (freshman) year at the USAF Academy as we were forced to sign a paper accepting a similar ADSC increase in case of getting an Air Force pilot slot. Fly them that way through the instrument phase, and then conduct a rotary wing transition. Looks like 11-11.5 year total commitment. In my first year and a half after flight school I flew over 500 hours. Its important to note that Stans theoretical plan might have allowed him to obtain the 750 hours needed for an R-ATP about 7 years after graduating from college, but thats not competitive for getting hired at a major airline. Aviation Warrant Officers have a 10-year service commitment after completing Warrant Officer Flight School. In an all-volunteer force, you won't be ready if most of your personnel in a critical branch want to get out. The Army says it needs the UH-72 for training because it teaches the use of glass cockpit and other advanced technology. I dont hold back when people ask me the best way to become a military pilot. 10 Year ADSO : r/Armyaviation - reddit I'm roaring and ready to go. I at least expected a survey or something from the Aviation branch to ask why I was leaving, but again, nothing. self refer to ASAP, mental health, yea you can get out but you're not going to fly on the outside. It's a great time to apply to become a pilot, and [Soldiers] can get in with a high school degree. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Welcome back, fellow aviators! The Army is the only service which allow non college graduates in being Officers and pilots as we know. Were you planning on doing it for less than 10 years?, His answer was, Of course not. Given the pandemic's direct and indirect effects on the aviation industry, is that even going to a concern going forward. Yes, the Ultimate Military Pilot Career Path is the best it gets you to all of your goals the fastest. Does anyone know the current selection breakdown of street to seat vs prior service? Next, hed go to his first assignment. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. When I got selected it was a 60/40 split between street to seat and prior. If pilots today are so unhappy that they are leaving in numbers higher than expected, why would prospective pilots accept a much longer service obligation for that same experience? I want to do it for as long as I can. If I am branched Aviation, this ADSO will begin upon completion of my flight school ADSO. PDF Aviation Service of Rated Army Officers - United States Army Hopefully with the new 10 year ADSO aviation will assess more senior NCOs. While the goal of the CSA's program was a well intentioned effort to make up for a dearth of aviation experience at senior ranks, it wasn't well received and Congress bit back. People tend to forget, aportion of street to seat WOFT applicants areprior service. army aviation 10 year adso. His deployment vulnerability continues for even a couple of years after his seasoning orders are over. Active component warrant officer strength, as of October 1, 2018 (Source: Report to Congressional Armed Services Committees on Initiatives for Mitigating Military Pilot Shortfalls), Two main variables affect pilot strength in the military: production and retention. MWI Podcast: Is Great-Power Competition a Strategy? The B-2 about to get fuel: https://www.dvidshub.net/image/5765915/b-2-and-boom. Well see that the Active Duty option is still a good deal, that the overall difference isnt so great, and well see why youre better off pursuing either than trying to fulfill a non-pilot commissioning commitment before trying to pursue the Ultimate career path. Comments will be moderated before posting to ensure logical, professional, and courteous application to article content. , I knew to ask lots of questions and take the time to dig down to the primary factors motivating this line of thinking. I spend almost 20 years missing opportunities due to family, deployments, school, and fear to change. Theres no debating that the military has a near monopoly on the most exciting aviation available to humankind. This 10 year commitment will definitely dissuade him from the Army. If you, the seasoned army aviator, were still a senior in college and told that to become an aviator you had to sign for a 10-year + flight school ADSO, would you do it? I ended up discovering that Stan was most worried about frequent moves and long deployments stressing his family during an Active Duty flying career. It further acts as a disincentive to those who would like to do the mission, but are unwilling to sacrifice a decade of their time in the event they don't like the lifestyle. Think about approving some ETPs. Since classes are generally pretty well mixed with people with respect to when they commissioned, the first couple of classes must have been a mix of people on the old 6 and the new 10. The program offers an incentive to remain on active duty in aviation service for either 3 or 5 years, beginning at ADSO expiry or contract approval date, whichever is later. change without notice to me. Your email address will not be published. You make an excellent point..I'm a twice retired CW4 (did a voluntary retiree recall three years after my first twenty). A RAND Corporation studyfound that even $35,000 a year would not be sufficient to stem the flow of Air Force pilotsthe study concluded a bonus cap between $38,500 and $62,500 would be necessary to make a meaningful impact. That means, we need you! However, on the surface, we see that Stans plan is likely to get a pilot to the airlines a couple of years before his peers. NG will have 10 years. I'm not ignoring anything that has been posted within this thread -- again, it's all been awesome -- but I want to feel as sure as possible that the opinions expressed here are an accurate assessment of the average Army Aviation experience. The UH-72 costs twice as much to operate as a TH-67. (Read. Just so we know I'm not a whiny do nothing: seven deployments, six combat for a total of 70 months and 66 months respectively. And yet, theres a certain logic to questioning that 10-year commitment. Were looking at troops selected for flight training in the fiscal year 2021 and beyond.. I crushed the SIFT, passed my flight physical, have a great OML standing, etc., so I should have a good chance of getting my top pick. Many aviators got tripped up by it in the last few years in the push to get to the airlines. 10 year ADSO - Page 2 - Vertical Reference Helicopter Forums Do most of your fellow aviators love it? Hes likely deployed at least 3 times, if not more, and has also spent many weeks TDY. I was just curious if the numbers are stillsimilar. That will solve our retention problem!" It will give you a recruiting advantage because a person out of high school or a year of college could position themselves for later on in life. Another disparity is the pay inequality between the militarys pilots. Incentives proposed to better retain, progress Army pilots "We probably need to look at it and adjust it a . Increasing the ADSO, though, does not require datait is guaranteed to increase retention. How long is Army Warrant Officer School? This can exceed a 6 year obligation. A large number of aviation personnel have a lot of passion and dedication to the mission, but that can only last so long when your life consists ONLY of the mission. I just signed my WOFT contract at MEPS on Thursday with the idea of a 6 year ADSO. 10 year ADSO - General Military Helicopter Discussions - Vertical The AvB is used to offer bonuses to aviators with critical skills or MOSs. How to Join and Requirements Scholarship Opportunities Cadet Life , Network, As the COVID-19 crisis continues to drag on, I cant help asking my crystal ball how things are going to shake out. Meanwhile students don't do touchdown autorotations and other traditional flight maneuvers. Well, the short answer is, we dont know. ADDED QUESTION: What, in your opinion, is the average view of Army Aviation within the perspectives of your peers? Im not young, but Ive aged well and am not ready to resign myself to a desk. Graduate School Program: Only 20% of the Aviation Branch allocation for ROTC and West Point can receive the Graduate School Option. Display as a link instead, As a Guard or Reserve pilot, you may need to find a full-time flying job in addition to your military flying (full-time Guard/Reserve pilot jobs are available, but you should join with the expectation of needing civilian employment in addition to your military flying). Expect to get yelled at for shit you have no control over. Why would you stay in the Army where you barely get to be a normal human, where you could make twice the pay, work half the amount, and actually get to live a somewhat normal life? I wonder how this will effect street to seat recruitment for WOFT. It must continue to remove burdens that plague the warrant officer community, such as non-pilot-related duties and frequent deployments to combat training centers. All in all, this track has the potential for less family stability than his Active Duty pilot counterparts. I know there are exceptions to the rule, and I know some people haze junior warrant officers. This means keeping up with at least two airplanes and dealing with two potentially very demanding bosses. Yes, that is 11 combat stripes. Yes, , and its important to get there as quickly as you can because, . It's kinda like a Yelp! The Modern War Institute does not screen articles to fit a particular editorial agenda, nor endorse or advocate material that is published. How is my list for OCS? : r/army - Reddit A regular Active Duty pilot career path. And finally, the Army will likely find that it should increase flight pay beyond what has already been offered. They might be stuck on Active Duty slightly longer than Stan, but hed have to spend at least a couple of years at a regional airline to even start competing for major airline jobs. U.S. Army UH-60L Black Hawk helicopters from the New Jersey National Guards 1-150th Assault Helicopter Battalion sit on the flight line during sunset at the Army Aviation Support Facility, Joint Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst, N.J., Nov. 8, 2018. Lasting solutions must come in the form of quality of life and quality of service improvements. I think that mindser still exists. Aviation Bonus (AvB) Program. What is everyone's take on the new ADSO for aviation? Before trying to add more pilots, or change quality of life (which I don't think they're trying to do), they should look at leveling the demands on pilots within the ranks. The 10-year service obligation is the result of a numbers-related calculus related to Army manning and will not address the problems that make Aviators leave. But Im a guard guy so RTAG is at the end of hooker advanced airframe for me theyll be hiring, all my airline buddies said everything is ramping back up. People are tired. So got word that it only affects WOs that complete WOCS after 1 Oct 2020. I want to do it for as long as I can. Since classes are generally pretty well mixed with people with respect to when they commissioned, the first couple of classes must have been a mix of people on the old 6 and the new 10. Such changes may affect my status, Its shocking that the Army doesnt have any institutional memory about what causes pilot shortage, which are primarily two broad topics: quality of life in the Army, and economic opportunities outside the Army. With the ADSO now at 10 years after flight school, let's - reddit Before people get started on the, this is the way the Army goes and all that, I know. Branch of Choice: Your BRADSO obligation runs consecutively with your flight school ADSO and your commitment will run out to about the 10 year point. I was enlisted for 6 before I moved over. The OPTEMPO is higher now than it was at the height of GWOT. Today were going to compare the more common Active Duty career path with the Ultimate one that Ive recommended so heavily. The Armys blind spot with retention data is further highlighted by comments made by Brig. Brennan Randelis a captain in the United States Army and is the former commander of Alpha Company, 4-2 Attack Battalion stationed at Camp Humphreys, South Korea. Army directive, AD 2021-31, approved Sept. 10, 2021, and effective Oct. 1, 2021, will reset the time required for aviator warrant officers (military occupational specialty 152 through 155) to. I transitioned from infantry to aviation and have had off-and-on heartache with it ever since. I'd love to see credit for the photo. Time will tell. This plan assumes that Stan can get hired by a Guard or Reserve unit at this point. Upload or insert images from URL. Anyone who does a modicum of research will quickly discover that our aviation culture is objectively inferior to the other services. Army Publishing Directorate - Details Page It does have the potential to get him to the airlines more quickly, and hed do all of his military flying in the Guard or Reserve (with Quality of Life far superior to Active Duty, in most cases). It's not about harassments, it how things get done. They think this is going to solve the shortage. The answer is clear. Cadets, who have not experienced the Army for even one day as an officer, are now asked to commit up to eleven years for the opportunity to fly for six yearsif they are luckywhile spending the rest of that time on staff, in professional military education, or in broadening assignments. One Academy cadet I spoke with (lets call him Stan) has always wanted to be a military pilot. It was not a wild decision to take a small hit to accession to make sure you have mid careerists. In the current COVID crisis, those years may soon make the difference between having a great job and getting kicked to the curb as a furlough. If you accept tuition assistance, 2 year ADSO. Stan is likely to do plenty of TDYs as an engineer and isnt impervious to the threat of deployment. Sounds great! What if Stans 5-year ADSC runs out as the next SARS/Swine Flu/COVID-type pandemic puts hiring on hold? is working as an Admission Liaison Officer for the USAF Academy. The ARMY should allow ATP for all prior service men willing and fit to fly. While the ADSO goes into effect in October, its effect on retention wont be felt for at least six years after the first ten-year ADSO class graduateslikely not until late 2027. For more information, please see our How do Warrant Officers get promoted? Gen. Michael McCurry, the director of Army aviation for the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff G-3/5/7,who said in September, One question I often get asked is, are the airlines impacting your shortfall? 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Why or why not? document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); The articles and other content which appear on the Modern War Institute website are unofficial expressions of opinion. Army Aviation Leaders should. First, as we just mentioned, you only have to worry about one job flying one aircraft for Uncle Sam. Although its easy to feel stuck on Active Duty, there are also options for getting out early. I don't know if there are enough Officers getting out that would be willing to revert to WO to solve the pilot shortage, but maybe it would help. The Army, by contrast, could only say that Army senior leaders recognize there are growing civilian opportunities for Army pilots. Also if you have any time in the army at all, youll probably stay until 20 at that point. My talk with Stan covered all of these, so my next question was, How long were you planning on being involved in military aviation then? I assume you're in flight school officially once completing BCT and WOCS. It wasn't approved. I'm very healthy and fit, I would like to fly helicopters. It seems the 10 year ADSO is now official. Just like privates do certain tasks, junior warrant officers perform certain work as well, and I've personally seen a few folks not being able to deal with that change. Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy recently signed a memorandum that increased the ADSOor active duty service obligationfor Army pilots. Raising the service commitment ignores the actual root causes. The Army has had pilot shortages off and on ever since I can remember. . Before Army Secretary Ryan D. McCarthy signed a memorandum for the change in June, the Army had bumped up its incentive pay for aviators in January. The best pilots I have served with were prior NCOs. junglerekon 2 yr. ago The TIG start isn't official yet. That was the last straw for several senior pilots in my battalion and the majority of them retired after/because of that deployment when they had intended to stay in for at least a few more years. (Yes, they say ADSO instead of ADSC because the Army and the Air Force refuse to do anything the same since they divorced back in 47.) The US Army recently changed its aviation Active Duty Service Obligation from 8 to 10 years and created an absolute uproar. Did ROTC, then Aviation, allegedly 6 years upon completion of flight training. Across the force, warrant officer recruiters are actively on the lookout to fill their ranks. I've been in the Army for a long time, and it's never been worse than now. While I continue to assert this is far better than becoming an Active Duty pilot through the USAF Academy, ROTC, or OTS, I worry that Ive done people a disservice by making the Active Duty pilot career path seem too unattractive. No one knows somehow, my S1 doesnt know either. What if you transfer from being an officer with 8 years of service (including enlisted time) to being warrant aviation? Signal: The IT department of the Army. Stans Active Duty pilot peers would have spent 8-11 years since graduating from college flying for the military full time. The earlier you can Palace Chase, the less difference there is between a regular Active Duty pilot and someone following Stans plan. It is the cheapest method for increasing retention rates, delivers a long-term investment in human capital, and provides a more predictable model for pilot production requirements. In order to figure out the pros and cons of these different options, we first need to compare the timelines side by side. You can post now and register later. By Thomas Brading, Army News ServiceAugust 18, 2020. One can just see all those 2LTs cringing when the folks at the bottom of each class are forced to take Aviation during the branching ceremony. I would never have signed a 10 year ADSO for army aviation. They require more time for people to gain experience. That's the Army's ace in the hole. Increased ADSO Effect on Recruiting and Retention So Army. And yet, theres a certain logic to questioning that 10-year commitment. It is extremely frustrating to see some officers and senior NCOS make such short sighted decisions to solve complex issues without finding the cause, and not conducting any type of research. Ideally, hed also earn his Instrument Rating, and build as much experience as possible. Getting in just under the wire. Do that and fix quality of life issues. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. If you go to a civilian school and the Army fully or partially funds that course, you will incur 3 times the school time for ADSO if the course is over 60 days. If the Army rescinds this ADSO and reverts to the original six-year obligation, it will have six years to develop solutions to increase retention. army aviation 10 year adso - tecis.in The Army can increase this to 100% with no problem whatsoever if needed. 10 Year ADSO : Armyaviation Anything and everything related to or affecting US Army Aviation. Be older than 18, but not more than 33 years at the time of board selection (Active Component (AC), USAR, and ARNG) . Prospective warrant officers can see that the Army is having trouble retaining pilots, and they can also see that increasing the service obligation by four years works against their best interests.